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Nov. 11th, 2005 02:33 pmAddressing determinism, the idea that all is caused: 1. Do you know exactly how? If yes, you are omniscient, the world is complete and I wish you well. 2. Do you not know exactly how all is caused? Then you do not know that it is. 3. Do you rather assume it is, based on observed probability and the shapes of events? Fair enough, though I'd like to know more about your methodology; but what possible meaning does this conclusion have for you?
Round two: It means there is no freedom. In the sense of ability to escape cause? Yes, that is part of your premise. So? So all I do is predetermined. Predetermined sounds suspiciously like a term of intention. Let's replace it with "caused" again, or all-caused. What's wrong with being all-caused? I might as well not exist at all, or exist in some completely different way. Might as well from what perspective? Some ways of being you'd presumably enjoy more. You don't understand. There is no me. Because you're part of a larger causal chain? Yes. But you don't know the composition of that chain. It doesn't matter, it is real. But not to you, in its entirety, and its entirety is all we're worried about here. But I feel I don't exist! No you don't, you wouldn't know how to feel that. But I feel unease that I might now. You exist to you, if only as error, and presumably as ineradicable error. Your personal world, since contributed to by your lack of knowledge, will never be the world of the truth. And therefore you have escaped cause. You are free. But wherever I make this assumption I will trip over the truth and feel myself disappear again. The light of truth disintegrates you wherever you're exposed to it? Well, is that unpleasant? Maybe you can get used to it. It will never get all of you, as we established. And presumably death is not ultimate revelation, in a knowledge sense. But all the things I say about me I need to stop saying. It's all lies. How so? You live in your world, you're allowed to map things out, label things. Whatever works, right? But the labels are false and must be discarded shortly. Discard them shortly then, if so. Look, find the errors the light of truth never destroys, or the ones that grow back fastest when disintegrated. Use these as foundations. Explore outwards from there. Be prepared to discard labels as you approach the danger areas. Approach these only where you need truth to function, actually--though that's likely a lot of places. Take notes, make drawings. You'll be alright. But what about you? Well, I have extension so I don't exist, so don't worry about me. Use the phenomenon or idea of me in any way that helps, by the way.
How can you be so calm about not existing?
But I do exist. But just as error. No, not as error. Things move and I am one of them. Moved by other things. Yes and et cetera. You are caused. But cause is not caused. Yes, every cause is caused by one or more causes. But cause itself is not. Movement must be inherent to being, and if not at one point then throughout. As a citizen of the throughout I proudly proclaim my uncausedness. Even if that were so, so what, so you're random. Not random. Random would be entire uncause, and hence nothing. I am open to cause and uncause both, apparently. I am the largely settled explosion of overlapping substances and awarenesses that are the record and sustenance of such a meeting. Well that sounds weird. It's just what happens. All adjectives apply.
Round two: It means there is no freedom. In the sense of ability to escape cause? Yes, that is part of your premise. So? So all I do is predetermined. Predetermined sounds suspiciously like a term of intention. Let's replace it with "caused" again, or all-caused. What's wrong with being all-caused? I might as well not exist at all, or exist in some completely different way. Might as well from what perspective? Some ways of being you'd presumably enjoy more. You don't understand. There is no me. Because you're part of a larger causal chain? Yes. But you don't know the composition of that chain. It doesn't matter, it is real. But not to you, in its entirety, and its entirety is all we're worried about here. But I feel I don't exist! No you don't, you wouldn't know how to feel that. But I feel unease that I might now. You exist to you, if only as error, and presumably as ineradicable error. Your personal world, since contributed to by your lack of knowledge, will never be the world of the truth. And therefore you have escaped cause. You are free. But wherever I make this assumption I will trip over the truth and feel myself disappear again. The light of truth disintegrates you wherever you're exposed to it? Well, is that unpleasant? Maybe you can get used to it. It will never get all of you, as we established. And presumably death is not ultimate revelation, in a knowledge sense. But all the things I say about me I need to stop saying. It's all lies. How so? You live in your world, you're allowed to map things out, label things. Whatever works, right? But the labels are false and must be discarded shortly. Discard them shortly then, if so. Look, find the errors the light of truth never destroys, or the ones that grow back fastest when disintegrated. Use these as foundations. Explore outwards from there. Be prepared to discard labels as you approach the danger areas. Approach these only where you need truth to function, actually--though that's likely a lot of places. Take notes, make drawings. You'll be alright. But what about you? Well, I have extension so I don't exist, so don't worry about me. Use the phenomenon or idea of me in any way that helps, by the way.
How can you be so calm about not existing?
But I do exist. But just as error. No, not as error. Things move and I am one of them. Moved by other things. Yes and et cetera. You are caused. But cause is not caused. Yes, every cause is caused by one or more causes. But cause itself is not. Movement must be inherent to being, and if not at one point then throughout. As a citizen of the throughout I proudly proclaim my uncausedness. Even if that were so, so what, so you're random. Not random. Random would be entire uncause, and hence nothing. I am open to cause and uncause both, apparently. I am the largely settled explosion of overlapping substances and awarenesses that are the record and sustenance of such a meeting. Well that sounds weird. It's just what happens. All adjectives apply.
